Brighton & Hove City Council
People Overview & Scrutiny
4.01pm9 July 2024
Hove Town Hall - Council Chamber
MINUTES
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Present: Councillor O'Quinn (Chair) Sheard (Deputy Chair), Cattell, Helliwell, McLeay, Meadows, Shanks, Simon and Thomson |
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Other Members present: Sara Fulford (Older People’s Council); Joanna Martindale, Adam Muirhead (community & voluntary sector representatives); Anusree Biswas Sasidharan (BME representative); Lesley Hurst, Maria Cowler (diocesan education co-optees)
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PART ONE
1 Procedural Business
1 a Declarations of substitutions: Sally Polanski (Amaze) substituting for Becky Robinson (Parent Carer Council)
B Declarations of interest: There are none.
C Exclusion of the press and public: There are no part two items
2 Minutes
2.1 There were no minutes to approve.
3 Chair's Communications
3.1 The Chair gave the following communication: It is always going to be a challenge holding the first Overview and Scrutiny Committee meeting following a change to an Executive and scrutiny model of governance. There are decisions being made that are too far along for us to scrutinise in any meaningful way. Therefore, in this first meeting we are going to be hearing from those Cabinet Members whose portfolios align with the remit of this Scrutiny Committee to hear from them about their priorities and to ask questions of them. In an Executive and Scrutiny system the relationship between the two is incredibly important. We want to form a good working relationship with the cabinet and to be able to be a critical friend to them.
We are joined by Cllrs Tristram Burden, Gill Williams, Leslie Pumm, and Jacob Taylor today. Tristram will present on his portfolio of adult social care and public health; and Leslie on his portfolio of communities, equalities and human rights. Unfortunately, Cllr Emma Daniel won’t be able to attend today’s meeting. She has circulated some information on her priorities and Cllr Jacob Taylor will be available to answer any questions members may have.
Following this meeting, I will ask officers to arrange an informal meeting for all People committee members to agree an outline 2023-24 People O&S work plan, drawing on the presentations that we will hear today plus whatever work plan ideas O&S committee members have. I want to stress that Scrutiny is a member led process and that it will be for People Committee members to agree a work plan. However, I believe that it is essential that this is informed by the Council Plan priorities and that we concentrate our time and resources on issues where we can make a difference, in other words, a policy that is being developed and we can contribute to it.
Going forward into the Autumn and beyond, we will have a chance to look more closely at plans and strategies as they are formed, have an input into council policies, and to scrutinise decision making.
4 Public Involvement
4.1 There were no public questions.
5 Member Involvement
5.1 There were no member questions.
6 People Overview & Scrutiny Committee Terms of Reference and Procedures
6.1 The Chair opened the first item of business, a paper outlining the terms of reference for the People Overview and Scrutiny Committee. She asked if members had any questions about the Terms of Reference or procedures for scrutiny.
6.2 Giles Rossington introduced the report to the committee and said that he was happy to answer any questions.
6.3 Cllr Meadows asked a question regarding the work programme noting that it will be difficult to scrutinise the Cabinet Forward Plan due to the timings of the Cabinet meetings and the People Overview and Scrutiny Committee meetings. The Chair responded that the Committee will have a good idea of what is coming up based on the presentations today and that the Committee would not just be looking at decision already made. Giles Rossington said that the key to scrutiny was what value looking at an issue would bring, and that the Committee was not limited to pre-decision scrutiny.
6.4 Cllr Shanks asked about the call-in process as it is not mentioned in the terms of reference. Giles Rossington responded that the call-in process is delivered by the Overview and Scrutiny Committees but not limited to the Committee. Any members (so long as they meet the criteria of six members made up of at least two groups, or one group and independents) can call in a decision. Once this request has been accepted, it will go to either the People or Place Overview and Scrutiny Committee.
6.5 Cllr Shanks asked a question regarding who would decide if a call-in request was valid. Giles Rossington responded that the call-in request would be made to the Chief Executive and the Monitoring Officer. The request would need to have a valid reason, such as no consultation was made, it goes against the council plan, it would have the opposite effect as planned (the reasons for a call-in are set out in the constitution.) The Chief Executive and the Monitoring Officer will then consider the call-in request, it is not a political decision. The Chief Executive, who was present in the audience, offered an example of a call-in request being made at her previous council of Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole Council. A decision to implement a PSPO had been requested for a call-in asking if all of the data had been properly considered. The Chief Executive stated that as long as the criteria were met and the reason justified a call-in would probably be accepted.
6.6 Adam Muirhead asked a question regarding the quorum for the meetings, was this three or three and the chair. Giles Rossington responded that the chair is not required for the meeting and that the quorum of three is based on typical best practice. However, the chair (should they be present) would want to decide if a meeting with just three attendees should go ahead. As the Committee is not a decision-making body it would not necessarily need to go ahead with the meeting and it could be postponed. It is unlikely that we would ever have such a low turnout for a meeting.
6.7 Cllr Sheard asked a question regarding call in requests and task and finish groups with relation to issues, such as housing, that are covered by both Overview and Scrutiny Committees, and how a decision would be made as to which committee would look at these. The Chair stated that she has regular conversations with Cllr Evans, Chair of the Place Overview and Scrutiny Committee, and that they realise that there are a lot of areas of overlap between the committees. They would discuss any issues and come to a decision. The Chair also said that it would be possible to do joint task and finish groups on issues that relate to both committees. Dialogue between the Chairs would be key. Giles Rossington stated that in forming the new system it was decided not to have formal protocols relating to this as it can be decided by informal dialogue between the Chairs to facilitate joint working or distribution of issues. However, should it be necessary in the future formal protocols could be looked at.
7 Presentations by Cabinet Members
7.1 Cllr Taylor presented on behalf of Cllr Daniel who was unable to attend. Cllr Taylor noted that Cllr Daniel is the Cabinet Member for Children, Young People and Youth Services, and that he is the Cabinet Member for Finance and City Regeneration, which includes school finance.
Cllr Taylor presented Cllr Daniel’s priorities within her portfolio which included:
• Early years (best start to life) and the first 1001 days in a child’s life.
• Tackling educational disadvantage
• School budgets and school organisation
• Bringing children back into the city for care and placements
7.2 Cllr Meadows asked if the slides could be distributed and if in the future they could be sent in advance of the meeting. Cllr Taylor answered yes to both.
7.3 Joanna Martindale welcomed educational disadvantage being one of the priorities and stated that it would require people from a lot of different backgrounds and organisations working together, but that lots in the community sector would want to work on this. Cllr Taylor stated that it is a nut that Brighton and Hove hasn’t cracked and that Brighton is similar in many ways to some of the London Boroughs but that the city’s deprivation was more concentrated into three areas rather than mixed in throughout the city.
7.4 Sara Fuller welcomed the prioritisation for children but was concerned that Island Lodge, currently a facility for older people with dementia, may lose beds to be used for children’s places. Cllr Taylor answered that the plan was not to take away beds that are currently used for dementia patients as Island Lodge has been running below capacity for a number of years, so is not really a lose of beds. The building can be easily divided into separate spaces.
7.5 Cllr Sheard asked a question on early years and the best start in life stating that there was help for families when children reached school age, such as help with uniforms and free school meals, but what help is available for younger children? Cllr Taylor responded that the Family Hubs provide support for families and that there are also various ways that families can access support such as the Brighton Fund, the Fairness Fund, and food banks, but most support for families with younger children comes directly from central government.
7.6 Cllr Sheard asked if it was still too early to see the impact of the change in school placement criteria to take into account free school meals. Cllr Taylor responded that it was too early to see the impact of the change as it was to come into effect from next September’s intake, but that it would be very interesting to monitor the data on this.
7.7 Cllr Sheard referred to Cllr Taylor’s use of the term ‘care deserts’ and said that to his knowledge there were only two secondary schools in the East of the city. He asked if there was a lack of secondary school places in the East of the city and if this was a secondary school desert. Cllr Taylor responded that Cllr Sheard was correct that there were only two secondary schools in the East of the city, however there were currently enough places within the area.
7.8 Cllr Sheard was concerned about reports regarding Homewood College and asked if Cllr Taylor was worried about SEND placements. Cllr Taylor responded that the issue had recently moved to a consultation and that the school was different to mainstream schools as places are commissioned based on need. All pupils from Homewood College had been found suitable places, he believed within the city, with some pupils moving to mainstream schools with support packages.
7.9 Cllr McLeay asked a question regarding the priority of bringing SEND pupils who have placements outside of the city back. She asked if St Bartholomew’s School site was being considered for this, having previously been suggested as such. Cllr Taylor said that the building was owned by the catholic diocese and so it was not something that the council could decide on its own, but it may be something that the diocese would be interested in. All of the buildings from schools set to close are designated for educational use and would require permission for any change, and so all four building would be considered.
7.10 Cllr Shanks said that she hoped that the new Labour government would be providing more funding for schools and hoped that the council were not closing schools too soon, when more money might keep them open. Cllr Shanks also said that catchment areas needed to be looked at as the issue had been dodged before. Cllr Shanks noted that there had been some issues with school federations raised in the press. Cllr Taylor stated that he was not close enough to the Labour frontbench to know if Per Pupil School funding would change, but even if it did increase the problem was the number of pupils. More money would be helpful, particularly to schools who are near to setting a balanced budget. Cllr Taylor said that the issue of catchment areas would be a good item for the committee to look into. Regarding school federations Cllr Taylor said that the Labour manifesto said they would look into federations. Most schools in the city have not moved to academies. Federations could potentially be a route to solving school budget problems as efficiencies can easily be found. For example, multiple school business mangers or premises managers would not be needed for a federation.
7.11 Cllr Helliwell Thanked Cllr Shanks for her support in looking at catchment areas as cross-party support on the issue would reduce fears from parents. Cllr Helliwell asked if there were deficits in schools that were full as well as those that were lacking pupil numbers. Cllr Taylor responded that not all schools who have low pupil numbers have deficits and that not all schools that are full had balanced budgets. More resources from the Council’s HR department is being used by schools to help save them money. Federations is another solution and the Council will continue to look at PANs.
7.12 Cllr Meadows asked why the Council were not putting schools that are in deficit in federation together, rather than asking schools that manage their budgets to support schools that are not. Cllr Meadows asked how Cllr Taylor expected this to work. Cllr Meadows asked about catchment areas and feeder schools, as she believed that these are being used by more affluent parents to get their children into good schools, such as Cardinal Newman. Cllr Taylor said that he thought it unfair to say schools haven’t been managing their budgets as this was largely driven by low pupil numbers. Cllr Taylor went on to explain that no federations are planned at the moment and that there will be very few surpluses at any of our schools.
7.13 Cllr O’Quinn thanked Cllr Taylor for covering for Cllr Daniel. She asked Cllr Pumm, Cabinet Member for Communities, Equalities and Human Rights, to present to the committee.
7.14 Cllr Pumm presented his three priorities, although pointed out it was a big brief and that it was difficult to pin it down to only three. His three priorities are:
• Poverty reduction
• Reducing Anti-Social Behaviour (ASB)
• Empowering LGBTQ+ Community
7.15 Cllr Shanks asked a question regarding reporting ASB and drug use to the police, stating that she found that residents were reporting ASB via 999 with no response and that they often did not want to report in other ways as they did not want to give their name and address. Cllr Shanks also raised the issue of ASB being caused by council tenants within housing blocks. Cllr Pumm responded that he was frustrated by how ASB prevention budgets were spent and that the council can look at how it scrutinises Sussex Police. Cllr Pumm stated that he had written to the new Home Secretary to ask about ASB budgets. Labour has committed to 13,000 new community police officers and PCSOs, which will help to tackle ASB.
7.16 Adam Muirhead stated that his organisation was doing a lot of work in ASB prevention. He said that he really liked Cllr Pumm’s emphasis on prevention as this will save money in the long run. Adam Muirhead further stated that poverty is a big driver of ASB and that he wanted to look at that. Cllr Pumm agreed and stated that reducing poverty would reduce ASB and reducing ASB would set people on the right path out of poverty.
7.17 Sara Fulford asked a question regarding poverty among older people, the low uptake of pension credit and what the council are doing to increase uptake. Cllr Pumm stated that Sara Fulford was right that there were many examples of poverty but that he did not have an answer on increasing the uptake of pension credit but would find out for her.
7.18 Cllr Sheard stated that he thought the council was doing a lot in the area of poverty reduction and asked if the council had a poverty reduction strategy. Cllr Pumm stated that council does have a poverty reduction strategy but that they want to update their approach and do more to tackle poverty.
7.19 Cllr Sheard said that Cllr Pumm had used the phrase ‘nuisance ASB’ and asked a question about the difference between ASB and nuisance ASB. Cllr Pumm replied that nuisance ASB is ASB that is more of a nuisance, giving the example of a very loud party that was past midnight, that this would be ASB but given the late timing it was a nuisance.
7.20 Cllr Sheard stated that in his ward of Coldean and Stamner there are a lot of student HMOs which bring a different atmosphere to other housing types. He then asked where the Council believed the line was between students enjoying their university experience and ASB. Cllr Pumm said that he did not have that data at hand but was happy to go away, look for it and send it to Cllr Sheard.
7.21 Cllr McLeay said that the Youth Action Group were doing great work with teenagers and young men, giving them role models and skills and that the council should continue to work with them. Cllr McLeay said that there were very few CCTV cameras in the city and that those wanting to commit ASB know where these are, and that Sussex Police have recently removed a job post monitoring CCTV. She asked what was happening with CCTV. Cllr Pumm responded that the Council has recently taken over some CCTV from the police and that where there are repeated ASB issues we have to look at CCTV, although sometimes putting in CCTV can only move the problem elsewhere.
7.22 Joanna Martindale responded to the point raised by Sara Fulford about pension credits stating that community groups do a lot of work on benefits uptake, giving the example of Amaze’s work on disability benefits. Joanna Martindale stated that there is a lot that community groups can do in reducing ASB. She went on to point out that young people are often the victims of ASB and should be involved in the decision making. Cllr Pumm agreed with Joanna Martindale and said that he was pleased to hear of the work of the third sector on benefits uptake. Cllr Pumm said that he was excited to bring the issues to committee. He went on to say
7.23 Dr Anusree Biswas Sasidharan noted that it was important to work with various people and groups on poverty reduction. She went on to ask what empowerment of LGBTQ+ people looked like and how can it be measured. Cllr Pumm said that Dr Anusree Biswas Sasidharan was right to highlight the work of other groups and the need to work with them on poverty reduction. Cllr Pumm stated that he has chosen to focus on the LGBTQ+ community as they are under threat in the current political climate, however this does not mean ignoring other communities. Cllr Pumm used examples from London on empowerment of LGBTQ+ communities including an LGBTQ+ Charter, changes in licensing rules to define what an LGBTQ+ venue is, and further protecting these spaces in licensing and planning.
7.24 Cllr Helliwell asked a question on the police rowing back on attending mental health situations and how this would impact on ASB. Cllr Pumm did not have an answer on this specifically but would find out from local partners.
7.25 Cllr O’Quinn said that a lot of work in education and early years feeds into ASB prevention. Cllr O’Quinn thanked Cllr Pumm for his presentation for answering questions. She asked Cllr Gill Williams, Cabinet Member for Housing and New Homes, to present to the committee.
7.26 Cllr Williams said that we were in the midst of a national housing crisis, and that in the last year over 2500 households had come to the council for help with homelessness. She stated her priorities as being:
• Improving housing quality, safety and sustainability
• Delivering the homes that the city needs
• Preventing homelessness
• Supporting independence and improving health and wellbeing
• Providing resident focused housing services
7.27 Cllr Shanks said that in Wigan they were doing lots of things with empty buildings, and that the council has the powers so would like to see these being used. Cllr Shanks asked further questions on emergency support being outsourced, and the estates development budget being distributed to residents’ associations to sped up its spending. Cllr Williams responded that anyone could apply for this money and that residents’ associations should apply for it. Cllr Williams stated that the papers on the emergency support are on the papers for the last cabinet meeting. Instead of leasing out and letting them get on with it the council are taking over the lease and commissioning out the service so that the council can set the standards and have oversite of the staff. Regarding empty buildings Cllr Williams said that she was thrilled to get the powers to double council tax on empty buildings and second homes. Cllr Williams stated that the council had recently hired an officer specialising in empty homes to focus on this area.
7.28 Cllr Shanks said that she knew about the new council tax powers but that in Wigan they are buying the council properties, so not just making an income from empty properties but bringing them back into use. Cllr Williams said that she did not recall this ever happening in Brighton and Hove. She said that the new government were looking at compulsory purchases and hoped for news on this soon.
7.29 Adam Muirhead stated that youth homelessness was really important to him, because of his lived experience, and noted that a recent report said that 136,000 young people are homeless and that a petition had recently been sent to Parliament on this issue but only six MPs turned up to debate the issue. Adam Muirhead asked a question on ensuring that youth homelessness was a priority given the decommissioning of the YACs specialist youth homelessness services. Cllr Williams responded that she wanted to pay special attention to youth homelessness and that the council are looking at purpose units for young people. Cllr Willaims said that they were looking at the possibility of sending an officer to Barts House a couple of mornings a week to make it easier for people, including young people to come in and ask for help.
7.30 Dr Anusree Biswas Sasidharan welcomed improved involvement with tenants and asked how and who will engage? She also asked if engagement will take place with those on the housing waiting list, not just tenants. She stated that there was a power dynamic within housing between officers and those on waiting lists causing people to feel scared to complain or to reject unsuitable housing offers. Cllr Williams said that the council needs to engage more, and that it should not been seen as ‘us’ and ‘them’ but ‘we’. She stated that there are currently two consultations regarding housing allocations policy and on housing strategy. She stated that the council are engaging with those on the housing waiting list. Cllr Williams stated that she understood the point regarding complaints as it is very difficult. She urged those who did not feel able to complain to speak with their ward Councillors, as this is one of the reasons that they are there. Cllr Williams said that there were valid reasons for rejecting a housing offer, and those with genuine reasons for rejection would be listened to and supported but there is a lack of supply and often there is no where else to offer them.
7.31 Cllr Thomson said that she was very excited about the increased and improved engagement, and with the potential to buy retail properties to turn into housing. She asked if this is part of the plan. Cllr Thomson also asked a question regarding the relationships with housing associations. Cllr Williams responded that regarding commercial properties she felt that we should be open to this if it would work, but not just regarding purchasing the commercial properties but looking at other options. She gave examples such as if a parade of shops is owned by the council, can an extra floor be built on top to provide housing, or if the council own a car park could housing be built over it? Cllr Williams said that she intends to leave no stone unturned in finding places suitable to build more homes and are looking everywhere. Regarding housing associations Cllr Williams said that they are the landlords not the council but their properties do appear on the council’s list for people to bid on, and that although the council are then not the landlords of these people they can intervene and ask housing associations to do a better job. She further stated that the council could encourage housing associations to build more.
7.32 Cllr Meadows asked a question regarding the money spent on insourcing as previously a lot of money was spent on outsourcing services. She said that she was pleased that the council have brought in standards for landlords but that the council was the largest landlord in the city and needed to be sure to meet these same standards. Cllr Meadows asked a question regarding homeless people without a connection to the city and if the council were housing them or trying to reconnect them with their previous location. She asked a further question on what the council is doing about its own empty housing stock, as many properties are being left empty for a significant amount of time waiting for repairs before new tenants can move in. Cllr Williams stated that regarding outsourcing, the repairs had been brought back in house the day before the covid lock down and that this had built up a large back log. She stated that the council are outsourcing repairs to deal with the backlog as they do not want people waiting so long for issues to be resolved and that once the back log had been dealt with they wanted to move to preventative work. Cllr Williams said that she was thrilled to have landlord licensing and that yes the council does also need to meet these standards. Regarding rough sleepers Cllr Williams said that the council does try to reconnect rough sleepers from outside of the city with their previous councils. Cllr Williams said that having void stock is very annoying but that because of new fire safety regulations many properties needed to be brought up to standards before new tenants were moved in.
7.33 Cllr Cattell warned that there were planning restrictions involved with turning commercial properties into homes, and that although the previous government had relaxed the rules the council still has article four rules needing planning permission. Cllr Cattell also said that she would not be in favour of putting people in ground floor flats in places like Western Road. Cllr Thomson clarified that she was not necessarily suggesting putting people into ground floor flats on Western Road.
7.34 Cllr Cattell asked if Cllr Williams was aware of planning rules on changing commercial properties into housing. Cllr Williams said that she was not an expert but that she had some knowledge.
7.35 Cllr Helliwell said that all of the committee members will know families facing homelessness. She asked what the council were doing to encourage house swaps which might improve a family’s situation even if it did not stop overcrowding. Cllr Williams responded that it was a very difficult situation and that it can lead to being unfair on other people.
7.36 Cllr Sheard asked a question regarding the large number of short term lets in the city and what is being done to bring these back to long term tenancies. Cllr Williams responded that one of the issue that she had written to the new Housing Secretary about this issue. She stated that there are around 4,700 AirBnB type lets in the city as well as over 7,000 people on the housing waiting list and in emergency accommodation. The Levelling Up and Communities Act promised the potential powers to tackle these using planning policies like article 4 and a mandatory registration programme. Cllr Williams also stated that she has asked for a licensing scheme and powers to limit the number in one area. She stated that this is an area that both Place and People Scrutiny Communities could work on.
7.37 Cllr O’Quinn thanked Cllr Willaims and asked Cllr Tristram Burden, Cabinet Member for Adult Social Care, Public Health and Service Transformation, to come and present to the committee.
7.38 Cllr Burden presented on the priorities for his portfolio which included:
• Prevention and advancing health equity
• Preparing for CQC inspections
• Support and development of the care market
7.39 Jasmine, Youth Council representative, asked a question regarding an explanation of mental health prevention work. Cllr Burden told the committee that the council has an aging well contract for people 50+ and that this involves befriending and providing activities for people to help keep them active. Cllr Burden added tat there were a range of issues that can cause mental health issues and that the council did not want people to get to a crisis point before coming to the council, and that they wanted to provide wrap around care.
7.40 Cllr Thomson stated that anti-social behaviour was one of the main issues that she found in her ward, and that there were a number of housing associations and hostels in her ward providing different levels of care, wanting to know what the council was doing to produce more consistent levels of care. Cllr Burden asked for clarification on the question. Cllr Thomson clarified that she believed that two of the hostels in her ward provided excellent services but perhaps some more consistency was needed in this area. Cllr Burden responded that he particularly wanted to see joined up services that did not have duplication. Cllr Burden also said that the corporate restructure would ensure that health and housing services were working closely together and that services were designed to all be of a good quality but provide different services.
7.41 Sally Robinson, said that she was keen to see work done around the transition from children to adult services as she believed this is something that could be better in the city. She also asked a question regarding how the city approaches the personal assistant workforce. Cllr Burden replied that transitional safeguarding is something that the Chair is very aware of. Cllr Burden added that he, Cllr Grimshaw, and Cllr Williams would be meeting regularly on this issue and would bring something on this to the committee. Regarding personal assistants Cllr Burden said that BHCC and ESCC have a service to get more PAs available. He went on to say that he wanted to create a Brighton and Hove care co-op, but that this was still in the feasibility study stage. He said that the advantage of this would be that the PAs would own a share in the co-op.
Cllr O’Quinn said that she had spoken with Steve Hook, Interim Director of Adult Social Care and Housing, and that she thinks that the transition would be something very important and worth the committee looking into.
7.42 Dr Anusree Biswas Sasidharan said that she was delighted that Cllr Burden was looking into transitional services and would be happy to refer him to people that she has been working with on this issue. She also asked a question regarding how health equity data is collected. Cllr Burden said that there is no easy answer as to where the data comes from as there are so many data points, but that he had shared a document (https://www.brighton-hove.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-03/BHCC-%20Health%20%26%20Adult%20Social%20Care%20Report%202022-2023%20%28Digital%20Version%29.pdf
https://www.brighton-hove.gov.uk/joint-strategic-needs-assessment-jsna/jsna-headline-summary-reports/jsna-executive-summary ) within the Microsoft Teams chat for the meeting that provides a lot of data on this.
7.43 Adam Muirhead said that Adult social Care was a big brief with a big budget and that he was interested in Cllr Burden’s comments regarding building the care market. Adam Muirhead went on to ask a question regarding the importance that the council places on the social value of contracts. Cllr Burden responded that the social value of contracts is very important and that the council have just refreshed the policy regarding the social value of contracts. He stated that the council wanted to ensure that the people that they are working with are providing social value.
7.44 Cllr O’Quinn thanked Cllr Burden for waiting until the end to present to the committee. She thanked the committee members for their questions. She stated that Giles Rossington would be sending out an invitation shortly regarding a meeting to discuss the committee’s work programme.
The meeting concluded at Time Not Specified
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